Santa Monica College The Problem with Sounding White Podcast Worksheet

>> According to stereotypes, I am a Black woman. So that means that I’m rude. I twist my
neck when I speak because I have an attitude. I am loud and unapproachable. If you
disrespect me, I become uncontrollable, because my only method of communication is
through volatile speech that escalates the situation.
>> Angry Black woman.
>> Mm hmm.
>> Okay. That’s what we’re getting into today. That was Indigo Williams. She’s a poet and a
writer. And she was giving a TED talk in London. So that angry Black woman stereotype, we
hear about it a lot. What is it doing to us?
>> It’s definitely doing something. We’re talking about those moments, when you’re in
mixed company, you know, back in school, you’re younger, you can’t really put it all
togetherat that really young age. And it all seems to come like front and center when you
grow up, you know, when you get a job.
>> Right.
>> And it’s something that, that I’ve been thinking about.
>> I know you have.
>> I’ve been thinking about it, you know, as I’ve been thinking about the situations, you
know, where, you know, I’ve held back in order to not be labeled as angry.
>> Right. We both you and I have both spent a lot of time in workplaces. Where you’re
other, right, or even an only, yeah, like, you could be the only black woman for me. It’s
always the only Muslim woman for sure. The Muslim immigrant woman, for sure. Even the
only woman though, right, like sometimes it’s just, you’re the only woman. And that
sometimes makes you behave differently. Right?
>> Yeah, maybe those instances where you have like so much to say, but you bite your
tongue, because you know, if you speak your mind, not just to disagree, but if you have, like
a really strong opinion about something, you start to feel like, you know, someone might
judge you. I’ve been thinking about this a lot lately.
>> So, you ready to dig in?
>> I think so.
>> Okay, here we go.
>> [Music] Stories about Black identity that aren’t always shared in the open.
>> Shhh girl, we can see that. It’s like a grio, a hair salon, a newsroom, and your mama’s
kitchen, all in one. The Stoop.
>> Okay, so Leila, you have been thinking about this angry Black woman stereotype. And I
know it’s something that’s come up for me too, you know, like, we aren’t the only women
dealing with this.
>> Yeah, I mean, it’s a huge problem for a lot of us at work. And Essence magazine actually
did this survey a couple years ago. And out of 650, Black women, more than 70% said they
feared being labeled as an angry Black woman by their coworkers.
>> So this survey was specifically looking at work places, right? Like, specifically White
dominated places, places where there’s a, quote, professional expectation.
>> So this study looked really at corporate non diverse spaces, because that’s where this
comes up a lot. You know?
>> Yeah, I mean, we are talking about just not being casual in conversation, right? We’re
talking about working in White spaces, where you’re the only, like we talked about earlier.
And that’s more common as you go up in paycheck, as you start to get promoted, make
more money, climb up that corporate ladder.
>> So I brought this up with some friends. Both of them work in pretty corporate jobs.
>> Event management in the private and public sector, high net worth and ultra-high net
worth.
>> The 1% event management, from financial services to nonprofits.
>> Both woman have told me that they’ve held back so they aren’t labeled, you know, angry
Black woman, right? And they didn’t want to say their names on air. Why don’t you ladies
want to use your real names?
>> Because it’s none of your motherfucking business. [laughter] That’s why.
>> What’s your answer?
>> Ditto.
>> Ditto.
>> Okay, so both ladies climb that corporate ladder, and they’re very successful. And when
we spoke, we were in my living room with some Nepalese take out about a wine, you know,
and I’m asking them, do you ever feel that you don’t speak up in a situation at work because
you don’t want to be perceived as angry or confrontational. Why?
>> I think it’s because, you know, there’s a, there’s a, there’s a little bit of attitude when you
are defending your position, right? Or there is, you’re, you’re challenging on some level.
And usually you’re challenging someone who doesn’t look like you [inaudible]. It makes for
an uncomfortable environment, I think, you know, when you’re in the minority. I’ve always
been the only, you know, so it’s, it’s a little hard.
>> I fight every battle, every battle. I don’t pick and choose, every battle matters. But I
learned a long time ago that you can fight every battle, if you know what to say and how to
say it. I think the biggest challenge is that once someone engages with you in a corporate
setting at work, or any setting, grocery store, wherever, and they see that you’re female,
and they see that you’re Black, the assumption is, you have an attitude, you’re angry, you’re
aggressive. So that’s the expectation.
>> Where’s that come from?
>> Oh, my God, everywhere. Culture, society, everywhere. There’s always the hip shaken,
head swinging Black woman.
>> [TV clip] Everybody know that I got the worst of the bargain. You ain’t nothing but a
failure.
>> Now wait a minute. What you mean a failure?
>> You’re a failure and a bum on top of that. You sleep all day, you hangs around the pool
hall, you makes me support you, you makes me buy your clothes. Everything you got in life,
you got without working for it. You ain’t never amounted to nothing and what’s more, you
ain’t never gonna amount to nothing. Ya hear that, ya big loafer? [TV studio applause]
>> That clip was the character Sapphire from Amos and Andy. It started as a radio show in
the 1920s. And then it became a TV show. And I just want to take a minute here to point out
that a lot of that hip shaking, head swinging stuff can be traced back to her. See, it was a
major pop cultural hit. And the character Sapphire transformed from a character to this
kind of image that started to stand in for Black women. Many believe she is the root of this
mainstream stereotyping of Black women. And so her image became bigger than her
character, this bitter, angry, and berating her husband type of person. That was Sapphire.
Okay, so I had to bring up this angry Black woman thing with these girls, because I knew it
would bring up a lot of stuff.
>> Yeah.
>> I mean, they’re both very strong Black women. And they both admitted to adjusting how
they act when it comes to work.
>> Attitude, attitude, so I think it, there’s some truth to it. But I think that I learned to leave
that at the door, fight every battle in a corporate environment. And I, I’m aware that
probably my default is that, to sort of be aggressive, and roll my eyes and shake my head
and put my hand on my hips.
>> Like you have now.
>> Like I have it now. So I’m very aware of that. And I make a point to not do it. So I
purposely defuse the situation.
>> So do you feel like you’re not being your true self, then?
>> Of course not. Of course not. There’s no room for your true self in a corporate
environment. We’re all acting. HR is involved. You can’t not follow protocol. You leave your
true self at home.
>> If I’m upset about something, and I show emotion, oh, I’m ghetto now.
>> What?
>> You know, like, oh, she got ghetto ->> Yeah, yeah.
>> — in the meeting like, no.
>> Right.
>>You annoyed me because you said something ignorant. And I called you out on it.
>> Yeah.
>> But it was making me ->> Ghetto.
>> — ghetto.
>> Yeah, absolutely. And if you weren’t Black, it wouldn’t be labeled as ghetto.
>> Right? So there’s always that tricky. And there, there has ->> Has someone said that to you before, that you were acting ghetto?
>> No, no.
>> But you get the look or something?
>> I get the look or there’s like this feeling of like, regret when you do show emotion
because it’s like, oh like, I allowed them to like, take me there. Or I allowed them to like, see
that side of me that I’ve been like ->> Camouflaging.
>> Camouflaging or like, you know, that’s not like my professional like, articulate, like
corporate self. You know, that’s not, I’m in my suit now. And I’m like, this is who I am.
>> and you’re raising the point, te armor that you wear every day as we go out in the world
as Black women.
>> Right.
>> You know, I don’t think, and this is an assumption, maybe other cultures do this, I don’t
know, I’m Black. I can only speak as a Black woman. I’m — I’m so many different versions of
myself. [Music]
>> It’s a hard conversation to have with you guys, you know, because it’s like, I am at times,
like struggling to find like, the words or the experiences, because there’s been so many, you
know, like, without digging, like super, super deep and like getting really, really like,
emotional about it because you’ve learned to be not emotional about it, because that’s what
it is, that that’s what it is. That’s the reality.
>> I also think what makes it hard is that there’s some truth to the stereotype. I’m
definitely capable of that.
>> Right.
>> It may, in fact, my be may be my default. I don’t know. I’ve felt this sense of defeat when
I have shown that side of myself. And it’s like, I’m beating myself up because I defended
myself. Which I was in, I had every right to do. But I feel like now I’ve given something
away. I’ve like given this, like part of me or shown this side of me that I shouldn’t have
shown. And then it’s like, but why? Like, I’m feeling bad for feeling bad, you know? And it’s
just like, horrible.
>> Do you think that if someone hearing this might kind of relate to what you’re saying, in
some way?
>> I feel like I’ve already given, given away so much by just even like talking about this, you
know?
>> What do you mean though, giving away so much?
>> You’re opening a door to this side of you that you typically don’t even talk about,
because who you’re going to talk about it with. So I think in just talking about it amongst us,
maybe it’s a conversation in passing, but once you share it, it’s you know, opening up the
door to this, like this pocket of emotion that I kind of have to keep protected. And so that, to
me is a lot. [Music]
>> So this whole thing, it got me wondering, like about this armor that they were talking
about. This armor that Black women wear so often, is this something we should be
worrying about? Like mentally? And is it okay, is it healthy? And is there some truth to this
angry Black woman thing?
>> It is what it is. So we tend to be much frank or much more direct, and don’t sugarcoat a
lot of things much of the time.
>> That’s Dr. Loma Flowers. She’s a psychiatrist. And she has a lot to say about this.
>> I think I think obviously, it varies from woman to woman, right? We all know women
who are sweet. Just like any other group of women, there’s all kinds. But as a general rule,
the sort of mainstream African American culture, tolerates much more frankness, and
directness and often expects it, than the White culture frequently expects it.
>> And that comes from?
>> I think it comes from the reality of their experience, that the experience is so difficult,
stepped on stepped over, left outside of various groups or whatever. It’s a, it’s a difficult
role to tolerate, and those who weren’t strong, and those who couldn’t sort of stand up and
take it, by natural selection, didn’t make it. So I think it has the pressures of the culture,
have made for that kind of a character merely as a survival mode.
>> So Dr. Flowers has spent her career working with Black folks and teaching emotional
competence. She’s an educator, writer, speaker, she’s all that. And so I wanted to talk with
her because Black women are at higher risk than others when it comes to depression.
African Americans are 20% more likely to experience serious mental health problems
when compared to the general population. But we’re less likely to seek treatment. So the
problem with mental health issues and Black communities is real.
>> We’ve been doormats for centuries, mistreated, all the rest of it, all the stuff that is now
coming out about the disparities and statistics about police, and whatever, and and people
on the street, the community, those disparities driving while Black, all of those things take a
toll. So you are more vulnerable, so it’s reasonable to feel vulnerable. Absolutely. So when
you’re assertive in the face of that vulnerability, the risk is definitely higher. It’s so
culturally embedded, the unconscious bias, the conscious bias, the discrimination, the
disparities, on and on, that it really does make us more vulnerable and more appropriately
wary.
>> It’s depressing.
>> It is depressing. There’s no question about it. I mean, it’s uplifting when there’s some
progress. And then when we get that inevitable backslide after the progress, then there is
that feeling of depression and despair. But I think that we have survived so long as a people
because we are strong, and we are grounded in reality. [Music]
>> So one thing I think about Leila is the fact that a lot of us are raised to you know, big girls
don’t cry, move on after hardship, keep your head high. Don’t let them see you sweat. We’re
raised to be strong. But then we’re called angry at the same time. And it feels like it’s like,
damned if you do and damned if you don’t.
>> Yeah, like with my friend. Do you think other people pick their battles as much as you
have to?
>> No, no. I’ve worked in situations where there have been White women in particular,
who have something to say about everything. And I’ve kind of imagined my, myself in that
person’s shoes. Like, if that were me, like, wouldn’t go over as, like, would it be as accepted
or perceived in a certain light? You know, it’s, she’s being, you know, like, focused and she’s
driven. Me, being the loud person in the room, it’s just me being like ornery, or me being,
you know, the feisty, just loud.
>> I think there is a distinction that’s made between African American responses and White
responses. And I think it’s that misinterpretation of our assertiveness and our presentation,
as angry, that it leads to the trouble. Whereas when White women do similar behavior, they
may be called angry in the professional situation, they do complain that the same thing of
being characterized as being angry or aggressive when they’re merely being assertive. So I
think there is some gender phenomena, but I think it is much more powerful for African
American women. Because I think the expectation is that they should, quote, keep their
place unquote.
>> And so one of the things that Dr. Flowers focuses on is, what she says, is to package what
you say.
>> Package that — what does that mean? That sounds like toning it down.
>> Oh, girl, watch it. Flowers will check you.
>> Ooh.
>> Toning it down to me does not mean capitulating, it does not mean giving up your
position.
>> Mm hmm. Okay, but how?
>> Well she told me to practice. I said, okay, so if I’m the only person of color in a meeting,
and John, for example, you know, John.
>> John.
>> He present — yes, John, he presents this idea as his own. And my instinct is to say, you
know what? I know you ain’t gonna sit up in here looking off series and still in my shit like
it’s your own, you know. But she says, a better emotional response to that might be that I
try things that could, like, buy me some time, you know, so I won’t be so reactive.
>> You know, John, well, I’m glad to see you think this project is so wonderful that you’d
like to appropriate my credit. That line is basically a time buying line.
>> That’s a good line.
>> Oh, my God. Leila, I cannot imagine you saying that.
>> I know. I cannot imagine me saying that either. I’d never say that.
>> No.
>> But when Flowers says it. Sounds good when she says it, right? So she had all sorts of
advice as to how to deflect situations, like by taking breaths, and not reacting suddenly. and
avoiding what she says can be anxieties. And she says that can increase stress. And then
stress can eventually like negatively impact your health.
>> This is obvious, right? I like the breathing part. Breathe in, breathe out.
>> Feels like something we could all do.
>> Yeah, something we could all do. But the emotional drain of all of this is intense, Hana.
And for some of us, it starts early. I mean, okay. I remember, back in the day, there’s a story.
There’s a story coming here. This is around the time I had my Jheri curl.
>> Oh, not the Jheri curl.
>> Yeah, I was really cute. I remember coming home and I was — I would be like
complaining to my mom that sometimes I’d walk into a room and all the heads would turn,
you know, and everyone would look at me because I was the only Black person and I felt
like I was being judged and stared at and I used to get so mad, you know, and upset and
frustrated and I’d feel bitter and my mom used to say, you know, Leila, they’re just looking
at you because, because you’re pretty, my dear.
>> Oh.
>> I know.
>> She’s so sweet.
>> You know, it’s such a mommy thing to say, you know. I never believe that.
>> Yeah, I say that to my daughters.
>> You’d probably say that to your kids, right?
>> But I mean it. I mean it. They’re pretty.
>> You’re pretty. Yeah, I mean, it’s a nice thing to say, but I’d never believed it. And I always
went to this default, which was that there was judgment and that people were whispering
and that I didn’t belong there. That I was the only, the other. And I’m not saying this was
happening all the time. But this is what it felt like. It felt like it was happening all the time.
>> Right.
>> And so, my shade radar is pretty good right now, but as a kid, it was, you know, still in
progress.
>> You’re a kid.
>> And yeah, and the radar came from somewhere, you know. It’s not like I invented it at
nine years old. It’s because something happened at some point that made me think I
needed to adjust.
>> And Leila, everything you’re talking about, everything you just said, I mean, it’s a thing.
It’s called emotional tax. It’s been studied and researched. And what it is, it’s, it says that
being different because of your gender, or race that can take a toll on you. It shows that
people lose sleep, they’re less productive, and it’s just, it’s just bad for your overall health.
[Music]
>> What got me thinking about this whole thing, Hana, initially was Sandra Bland, a Black
woman in Texas who was pulled over for not signaling and was later found dead in a jail
cell.
>> You okay?
>> I’m waiting on you, you. This is yo job. I’m waiting on you. What do you want me ->> You seem very irritated.
>> I am. I really am because I feel like it’s crap is what I’m getting a ticket for. I was getting
out of your ->> When I saw what happened to her this got me thinking. I’m Sandra Bland. You know,
many of my friends are Sandra Blands. She said what she felt, she was honest, she reacted
to what she thought was bullshit. And she ended up being found dead in her jail cell. Her
death was ruled a suicide but her family and civil rights activists continue to dispute this.
And Sandra Bland has already been studied in terms of what we’ve been talking about
today, the angry Black woman stereotype. Augustana College in Illinois actually published a
research paper called the killing of an angry Black woman, Sandra Bland, and the politics of
respectability. And the author named Victoria Gillan says, Sandra Bland’s resistance
disrupted the power structure towards Black American women. Bland did not adhere to
the politics of respectability, that was expected of her. She was not afraid to speak her mind
when Encinia, the cop asked her something. And she was not willing to cooperate when she
knew what was happening was unjust. Right? And that was her quote, crime.
>> Stand out of the car.
>> You do not have the right to do that.
>> I do have a right. Now step out or I will remove you.
>> I refuse to talk to you other than to identify myself and ->> Step out or I will remove you.
>> I am getting removed for a failure to signal?
>> Step out or I will remove you. I’m giving you a lawful order.
>> so I talked to Dr. Flowers about this, and I was mad. I’m angered that Black women need
to do three things. First, we’re expected to tone it down, tone down our reactions in order
to not be perceived a certain way.
>> Right.
>> Right. And then second, we need to be able to have some sort of racism detector to make
sure that doesn’t trigger anyone else’s aggressive response. Third, we have to realize that
even when we’re complying with steps one and two, there’s a good chance that the
outcome may still be a negative one still.
>> Insofar as your duty is to protect itself, I don’t think that’s a duty you can ever set aside.
And, and the risk of setting it aside like Sandra Bland, is enormous.
>> I mean, the risks we’re talking about can be losing your job, right. But it can also mean
death.
>> Yeah, whether it was foul play or suicide, Flowers says that for Black women especially,
we need to think about survival first.
>> Protect yourself comes first, right? And yes, other people have a responsibility to protect
you. But as adult women, we have a responsibility to protect ourselves also, and you
cannot, you cannot relinquish that responsibility, merely because you’re in the presence of
somebody who ought to be taking care of you more. And so when tone it down usually
means is like a euphemism for shut up. And I don’t see it that way. I see it, as I said, as being
much more strategic and political, about how you say the very same thing and stick to your
guns. It’s very important in these discussions to stick to your guns. If it gets to a no, it isn’t,
yes, it is, no it isn’t, you have to stop that. But you can say, let’s pause this right now,
because we’re not making any progress, which is a process comment. You go off the
content onto the process. This process isn’t being productive at the moment, let’s take a
timeout and revisit it, whenever. You know, soon, next week, or tomorrow, at the end of the
meeting, which gives everybody a time to disengage, think about what, what is the other
person saying? How can I counter it in a way that they can hear it? Because what you’re
really trying to do is get somebody to hear your point of view. That’s what Sandra Bland
was trying to do. [Music]
>> But Hana, I get what Dr. Flowers was saying, but my gut reaction to these types of
situations is fuck this, you know, isn’t this part of the problem, that, you know, we need to
tone things down in order for other people to feel more comfortable? Or that we should be
constantly assessing situations to make sure we’re not misinterpreted? Yeah. Or should it
be the other people should be more aware of their actions, and understand that there’s
some deep rooted stuff and all of this.
>> But is it logical that every person you meet is going to be analyzing your history with
racism before they do something that offends you?
>> Yeah, I know. I know, right? But it’s not necessarily logical to think that I need to check
myself every time I react to someone, because otherwise I’ll be stereotyped as an angry
Black woman.
>> Yeah. I mean, I don’t know. But there are some signs that things in the culture, maybe
shifting.
>> Yeah. And I also came across another study, and it was looking at the impact of race and
gender and leadership outcomes.
>> Uh huh.
>> And it was this hypothetical workplace and boss kind of thing. When Black women
showed dominant behaviors, leaders, they were actually perceived the same way as White
men.
>> Oh.
>> Yeah. I mean, that’s not something I expected to hear. So in this case, they weren’t being
penalized for being assertive.
>> Okay. That’s not bad.
>> No, moving forward, moving forward.
[ Music ]
>> So back at the girlfriend gathering in my apartment, we were trying to find solutions.
The toning it down is something that a lot of us do, and it’s exhausting. And so one of the
things they definitely thought was the cause of holding back at work was just being the only
all the time, only, the other. Right? Yeah, I mean, you could try to find another job that was
more diverse. But not everyone has that luxury. I asked the ladies, what if there were more
people of color at their jobs? Do they think that that would change this camouflage that
they’ve been dealing with?
>> I don’t know.
>> Being the majority at work?
>> Yeah, I don’t know what that would look like. I don’t even know.
>> It may be worse. Bunch of people, you know, no longer diluting themselves. [laughter] I
mean, it might be a recipe for disaster. We need to thank these White folk. [laughter] Can
you imagine working with 10 of you? Oh, Lord.
>> No. But can you imagine?
>> I think it’s just even sad to say that I cannot imagine working with ->> And we’re still the minority.
>> Yeah.
>> Your wine glass is empty. I’m sorry.
>> Glass is empty. You wine glass is empty [inaudible].
>> You don’t want a Rose?
>> You ran out of white?
>> Yeah.
>> I’ll off a little bit.
>> [Multiple voices] Cheers!
>> Oh, Hana, I mean, I don’t know where we’re going from here. I just know I got a lot off
my chest today. I feel like I had a therapy.
>> I know.
>> You are, you are my Dr. Flowers.
>> I know. I know.
>> [Music] And that’s The Stoop. The Stoop Family includes editor Jen Chien, engineering
by James Rowlands and Gabe Graven. Music by Daoud Anthony and Masin Jamal. Support
for The Stoop comes from the NPR Story Lab and from California Humanities, a nonprofit
partner of the NEH. Find them at calhum.org. Big thanks also to pop up archive. Our radio
home is KLW San Francisco. There’s more about today’s episode at thestoop.org. And one
more thing. If you love radio storytelling and want to learn how to make these types of
stories, then consider applying to the Transom Storytelling Workshop. It’s a nine week
audio intensive in Cape Cod and Transom supports diversity in voices like ours, Hana.
>> Right. right.
>> Right, and they offer this full scholarship to make that happen. So go to transom.org and
apply by December 1st. All right, see you next time. Bye Leila.
>> Bye Hana.
[ Music ]
Podcast Worksheet- Exposure
The Basics
Podcast Name: On Being with Krista Tippett – The Erotic Is an Antidote to Death
Air Date: July 8, 2021
Host(s): Krista Tippett
Guest(s): Esther Perel
Welcoming in New Information
What did you know about the topic, the podcast host/s, the podcast guest/s before you listened to the podcast?
• I had not heard of Esther Perel prior to listening, and did know anything about the topic
Language- Write down important vocabulary words pertinent to the podcast and key terms that were new to you
• Erotic Intelligence – “But we have an erotic mind. And that erotic mind, it is infinite. And eroticism
thrives on the ritual and the celebration and the infiniteness of our imagination — and on the
forbidden, for that matter, too.”
• Desire – Desire is to own the wanting
• Eroticism is a transgressive force. It is about breaking the rules. That is erotic because it takes you
outside of the borders of reality and the limitations of life.
Quotations- Write down any quotes that you found stunning or that you found interesting
• “We’re walking contradictions, seeking safety and predictability on one hand and thriving on
diversity on the other”
• “When you listen deeply, deeply to the experiences of others, you stand in front of your own mirror,
and you transcend that aloneness”
• “Fierce intimacy is when you see people who tell you, there are certain things about their partner that
drive them utterly crazy and always have and will never change.”
• “Play is when risk is fun. But you can’t play when you are in a situation of danger, anxiety, or
contraction. So you have to feel safe in order to play. But if you do not play, you won’t experience
the erotic.”
Ways Knowledge is Organized- (more quotable information)
Pertinent Statistical Information (Discovery Paradigm or Quantitative Data- information that is measurable,
systematized, repetitive, rigorous, accurate, valid)
• No Statistical Information
Pertinent Expert Information (Interpretive Paradigm or Qualitative Data- information that is focused on
meaning making from “experts.” “Experts” have a focused knowledge on subjects, topics, phenomena, or self.)
• “It is the most fearsome of all intimacies because it is all-encompassing. It reaches the deepest places
in us and involves disclosing aspects of ourselves that are invariably bound up with shame and
guilt.”
• Passion is like the moon. It has intermittent eclipse. Passion will wax and wane and can also be
resurrected.
• Unconditional love does not exist. Love is conditional.
Pertinent Critical Information (Critical Paradigm or Critical Scholarship- hidden narratives, power, equity,
agency, exploitation, oppression, asymmetrical power relationships, false consciousness, distorted
communication, and push for social change)
• “And what happens is that the people who talk about freedom don’t talk about accountability
enough, and the people who talk about accountability don’t talk about freedom.”
• “And if you cannot do it with each other, you’ll go do it somewhere else. But you need to do it,
because if not, you die, if you don’t change to continue to stay alive.”
• And when people do it, there’s a sense of purpose, there’s a sense of aliveness, there’s a sense of joy,
there’s a sense of transmission — there’s no age. There is no age in the chronological sense because
you are in touch with life.
Processing the New Information
The podcast made me think• About the importance of intimacy in relationships
• About Erotic Intelligence
The podcast made me feel- (Profoundly not interested in if you liked it, this isn’t yelp, what did you feel?)
• More aware about the reality of maintaining and creating strong relationships
• More analytical when thinking about hidden narratives we have but have yet to realize
Active Action Steps-Have you sought out to additional information? Yes or No Can you apply to other classes?
Yes or No
Reflection Summary
I found this podcast super interesting and eye-opening. I honestly do not think I’ve ever listened to
anything that could compare to this, and the information that Esther Perel touched on. Perel touching on why
eroticism is more than sexuality, was something that I had never thought about nor made the connection. Prior
to listening to this podcast, I always thought of the term erotic as a word that was always used in a sexual
context. Starting from the beginning, I thought the lessons she shared about her two parents who survived the
holocaust and the key differences between living and surviving were super interesting. Her concept of living
and surviving played a big role in her message to the audience. She put this same concept in relation to
relationships and being in a dying or autopilot like relationship. Another thing she learned from her parents was
that luck always came first. Perel really stressed that in the end, everything comes down to an individual’s
imagination. We are in control of so much of our live when we change our perceptions and open our eyes to
living with a different narrative. She connects this back to her parents saying that her parents had the sheer
determination and imagined that they would hopefully see their family members again. Perel, also shared many
observations and lessons from her history of observing and exploring relationships. She named that there were
two kinds of growing apart, and that you could have either too much or too little of the thing that leads people to
grow apart. Perel shared that in order to be secure in a relationship, you must be able to anchor yourself, feel
rooted, and then also be able to get up to leave and go play without having to worry. An important aspect of a
relationship is having security that when one person leaves, they trust the other person enough to let go and
comeback. Overall, a theme within this podcast was the topic of eroticism. In this podcast we learned that the
word is more than a sexual context but is about the quality of experience and pleasure.
Podcast Worksheet- Exposure
The Basics
Podcast Name ___________________________ Air Date_____________
Host(s) ____________________________
___________________________
Guest(s) ____________________________
___________________________
____________________________
___________________________
Welcoming in New Information
What did you know about the topic, the podcast host/s, the podcast guest/s before you listened to the podcast?
Language- Write down important vocabulary words pertinent to the podcast and key terms that were new to you
•
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Quotations- Write down any quotes that you found stunning or that you found interesting
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Ways Knowledge is Organized- (more quotable information)
Pertinent Statistical Information (Discovery Paradigm or Quantitative Data- information that is measurable,
systematized, repetitive, rigorous, accurate, valid)
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Pertinent Expert Information (Interpretive Paradigm or Qualitative Data- information that is focused on meaning
making from “experts.” “Experts” have a focused knowledge on subjects, topics, phenomena, or self.)
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Pertinent Critical Information (Critical Paradigm or Critical Scholarship- hidden narratives, power, equity, agency,
exploitation, oppression, asymmetrical power relationships, false consciousness, distorted communication, and push for social change)
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Processing the New Information
The podcast made me think•
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The podcast made me feel- (Profoundly not interested in if you liked it, this isn’t yelp, what did you feel?)
•
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•
Active Action Steps-Have you sought out to additional information? Yes or No Can you apply to other classes? Yes or No
Reflection Summary- In a full one-page reflection tell me about the experience of listening to this podcast. What did you learn?
[ Music ]
>> Stories about Black identity that aren’t always shared in the open.
>> Girl, we can’t say that. It’s like a grio, a hair salon, a newsroom and your mama’s kitchen
all in one.
>> Interdental fricatives.
>> What’s that?
>> Interdental fricatives.
>> Explain please.
>> Interdental fricatives.
>> There are a lot of things that define Black speech patterns. And one of them is this thing
called the interdental fricative, interdental fricative. It’s something we hear all the time.
>> Do dat, do that do do dat dat dat.
>> Come on.
>> Do dat, do that do do dat dat dat.
>> Yeah.
>> Do dat, do that do do dat dat dat.
>> Do dat, do dat, do do dat dat dat. You know, who dis, who dat. They so crazy.
>> They crazy.
>> Basically, it’s when people pronounce the the sound in words like this, and that as a D
sound. So it becomes dat, dose, dees, it’s something that predominantly happens in Black
speech.
>> Come on.
>> Do dat, do that do do dat dat dat.
>> Yeah.
>> Do dat, do that do do dat dat dat.
>> And it’s important, because how we sound can make a difference in a lot of ways. It has a
lot to do with who people think we are, maybe even how we’re treated or how people react
to us.
>> And it can really affect how we feel comfortable with who we are. So what does it mean?
when people tell you, you sound Black or you sound White? That’s what we’re talking
about today on The Stoop. Dis is Lela Day. And dat is —
>> Dis is Hannah Baba.
>> So Hannah, has anyone ever told you, you sound White?
>> Well, yes, all throughout my childhood, I’ve been told, you know, I look Black, but I
sound White.
>> You definitely look Black. You look Black. Do I look Black?
>> You do.
>> So, but I sound White. That’s what I’ve been told. What about you?
>> Yes. And I’ve got some things to say about this. Okay, so for me growing up, there were
plenty of jokes about the way I talk.
>> Listen to how you talk, like a White girl. Who you think you is?
>> You sound White when you’re on the phone.
>> But I can’t help the way I sounded. It’s like my default voice. You know, you have that
default voice. And it’s just how I speak. Not all the time, but I grew up in Las Vegas. And
there were two types of Black kids in school. And there were those who hang out with
other Black kids and those who bounce back between Black and White friends. And I was in
the second group. I imagine you were too.
>> Yeah, absolutely.
>> So with all that switching back and forth, my voice switched to and it still does like,
when I’m on the phone with my sister.
>> Girl, you betta ack somebody. Uh uh, I do not know what you are talkin’ bout.
>> It’s not something I’m always conscious of. Sometimes it just sort of happens.
>> Code switching.
>> Yep.
>> Yeah, he came in looking all crazy, actin’ all crazy, talkin’ all crazy. I was like, uh uh, you
betta back off.
>> Now as an adult, I have fun with it. But as a kid, it wasn’t always this way.
>> All up in my koolaid. You don’t even know flavor.
>> Finding my voice was painful. And at school, being told I sound White meant one thing. I
wouldn’t be eating my corndog and tater tots at the Black kids lunch table. But that was
then, you know, got over it. Right. And nowadays in some schools corndogs are replaced
with tofu lookalikes. So it got me wondering if the conversation among teens has changed
too. Because teenagers nowadays eat tofu.
>> That’s true. They do. They do eat tofu, at least in the Bay Area they do.
>> That’s right. So I went to a place where I thought I might find some Black teens who’ve
been accused of sounding White.
>> Where’s that?
>> The skate park.
>> The skate park, of course.
>> A lot of people have told me I talk White before like, I don’t know like, what it means to
like, talk White or talk Black.
>> They be saying I talk White. I get pissed off. They only do it because my mom’s White,
you know, so, I have to speak respectable and they think since I’m Black, I have to act
ghetto and be stupid.
>> I guess talking White would be like, I don’t know like, I want to say like, speaking
improper, I guess like, like how most White people talk or most normal people talk, you
know.
>> This conversation about voice got me interested in talking to someone whose job is
basically his voice.
>> This is 1A. I’m Joshua Johnson. Thanks for checking us out today.
>> Joshua Johnson is the host of a popular national talk show called 1A, and he used to be
the morning host at an NPR station in San Francisco. He’s African American, but he sounds
pretty similar when he’s on the air.
>> He says he’s noticed President Trump’s immigration policies playing out in his
community.
>> And when he’s talking with me in person. Is this your radio voice?
>> This is my voice.
>> This is your voice. So as your ->> People asked me that a lot. They’re like, do your radio voice. I’m like, have we not been
talking for 15 minutes? This is it. You know, my goal on the radio is to sound like me. I don’t
want to sound like the news anchor who was enunciating the headlines at you.
>> But Joshua says he’s experienced surprise reactions when people realize he’s Black.
>> We did a show about race and diversity in Silicon Valley. And somewhere in the show, I
mentioned that I’m African American, I forget what the context was, but somewhere in the
show, I mentioned it. And I got an email from a listener who basically wrote, I never would
have guessed that you were Black. Joshua says he doesn’t let these reactions about his race
really bother him, because like me, he’s heard it all, that patronizing tone.
>> Mm hmm.
>> You are so articulate, you speak so well. And Joshua thinks this ignorance can also be a
lesson in disguise. Show us assumptions we often have about race.
>> So how did he respond to that? Did you ask him?
>> I did ask him. Did you respond to that?
>> I did. I did. I told him, it was a very good thing, that you as a White person have to stop
looking at me as a Black person as other and presume that I sound like errbody on BET.
>> Then I asked Joshua, if he’d ever been accused of sounding White when he was growing
up, and he tells me that he not only heard the accusation, but he grew up with Black adults,
insinuating that it was preferable. To sound White was to sound high quality.
>> That’s kind of what those kids were saying.
>> Exactly.
>> In my hometown of West Palm Beach, Florida, and I remember, the choir director, Mr.
Richardson, said, I want you to sound so good, that if I put you on stage behind a curtain,
and had you sing to the audience, everyone would swear you are White.
>> To sound marketable, or quote unquote, proper.
>> Proper.
>> We’ve heard that is the goal most parents and teachers set out for kids, right?
>> Right.
>> I mean, saying the word ain’t in my house would warrant a side glare from mom that
was just as bad as a spanking.
>> Ain’t.
>> Ain’t, I ain’t doing it. So Joshua says he was very aware of this as a child.
>> I always knew there was something blessed and something cursed about the way I
spoke. I knew that it would open doors for me. And I knew that none of my friends was
behind those doors.
>> But what is it about the fear of these doors closing because of the way we sound?
There’s actually a name for it. It’s called linguistic profiling.
>> There is such thing ->> A linguistic profiling. It was a term coined by professor John Bah, and he’s a PhD at
Stanford University. He did this study, where he selected five racially diverse cities in the
Bay Area to ask about housing for rent. First, he called using an African American accent.
>> May I help you?
>> Yes, my name is Michael Davis. I was calling to see if you might have any houses for rent
that might be available.
>> Then he called again, this time with a Latino accent.
>> Hello, this is Juan Ramirez. I’m calling about the apartment you have advertised in the
paper.
>> With these accents, Paul was often told nothing was available. But when he switched to
what he called a neutral accent ->> Ah, ha.
>> Uh huh. He was often invited to see the property.
>> Wow. That’s incredible.
>> Yup.
>> But not surprising.
>> Not surprising. You know what? I was recently, linguistically profiled.
>> How?
>> Okay, so I was working on this story. And it involved a support group for African
Americans. And many of them had a criminal record.
>> I remember that story.
>> Yep. And at first, they seem really open to being interviewed. And then they just turned
cold and days turned into weeks of messages without any return phone call.
>> You, I remember you having a hard time with them getting back to you.
>> Yeah, it was, it was really difficult because they were totally open in the beginning. And
so then we finally met one of the coordinators, she looked at me, and she’s like, started
laughing. And she says, I would have gotten back to you sooner if I would have known you
were Black. Oh, yeah. So I was in, right. I was in. And although we both laughed together
about her comment, inside I was feeling like deflated.
>> Yeah.
>> You know, kind of like, kind of like eating that corn dog alone at lunch again. But as for
my voice, whether it works to my advantage or not, it’s just the one I got.
>> That’s just the one you got Lela, and it’s a beautiful one.
>> Thank you.
>> You know, there’s someone else that’s got a lot to say about voice and she’s right here in
our backyard. Yeah.
>> From Oakland, California, Chinaka Hodge.
>> In Katrina’s world, she walks above it all. Ghetto brown gel slicks cosmos back in her
hair easily. She walks quickly. No time to talk. Shoots insults over her shoulder, your mama.
She’s living for her lovers memory and he’s not even dead yet. This is the sound. Pickles
and red Kool Aid sticking to her lips like blue Now Laters, spiced apple cider, sunflower
seeds, chitlins and abject poverty. She’s 14, womanly, big bosomed, bigger bottoms,
everybody wants to hold her thigh, hold her breast, hold her back, no one wants to hold her
hand.
>> That is powerful. That’s Chinaka Hodge, Oakland poet, educator, playwright, and
screenwriter. And she did a TED talk. In that poem we just heard, Chinaka wrote that based
on what she can see out of her window in West Oakland, so that’s where we went to talk
about voice, how we sound and why it matters. So let’s go to West Oakland, and hang out
on her stoop.
>> The stoop is very much our kitchen, and our living room and our sink. And it’s been lots
of things over the years, my dad, my dad comes out here and plays drums from time to
time. We got a lot of stairs, a lot of stoops and a lot of conversations here, but welcome.
>> So has anyone ever told you that, that you sound White?
>> Absolutely, absolutely, on many occasions. I went to two small, independent Black
schools. So I had a different education than most, than most straight out the gates. And so I
left those schools and went to Cole Middle School in West Oakland. And that was the first
time anyone had told me I sound White, but I’d never gone to school with any White folks.
I’d never, like I went to a Black gymnastic center and I rode horses with the Black Cowboys,
and I did Black tennis camp. So in many ways I was boogie, but I’d never, I’d never heard
that I found it White because I’d never been around White folks. I sounded like every Black
person I’d ever been around. But when I got to Cole, there was definitely a different lexicon,
a different phonology. And it actually encouraged me and impelled me to study African
American vernacular English when I went away to university. So I got to study with Rene
Blake out of Stanford University, who was in our faculty at NYU whose major focus is
copular forms of the verb to be, which was very interesting to me. So I, you know, I actually
did a concentration in linguistics with a, with a focus in African American vernacular
English for my undergraduate degree. And so, I’ve been told I sound White. I’ve been able
to unpack that. I’ve been able to ->> You studied it.
>> — I studied it.
>> Yeah what does that mean though?
>> I studied it for quite some time. So I don’t think there’s a such thing is sounding White.
And when I when someone says that, I was like, do I sound White like a Scottish person? Do
I sound like, like White, like a Brahmin in New England? Do I sound White like someone
from Utah? Where’s my tongue in my mouth when I sound White? Is — are there interfere,
inter dental fricatives. You know, like I asked all of those things. And then at the same time,
I do know what it means to switch what Renee Blake called Rfulness back in the day.
>> What’s that?
>> Rrfulness.
>> Rfulness is a, it’s a, it’s a term that she coined, I believe, but it’s about the level to which
an art is pronounced or not in a word that often provides distinction ->> We need an example.
>> — one sounding Black or White, so actually did mine, our final for that course, was to
listen to a musician. And just basically get, I think 250 different examples of him using
words that have r’s in them and then measure the amount of r that was in it. So we chose
E40, who actually has more rfulness than most people, an African American. he tends to
stress the r’s like, America, you know, what? 40 water.
>> Errbody got choices. I choose to get money, I’m stuck to this bread. Errbody got choices.
This bitches is choosing. I’m all in they head. Errbody got choices. Keep it one thou — I liked
it, I choose. Errbody got choices.
>> You know, he would, he would say his little bit more whereas like a Too Short might
lean back off the r a little bit.
>> That’s interesting. I’m realizing my mom always says worter.
>> Worter. Yeah.
>> Somewhere, I met this girl. Her name was Jo. She loved the way I rocked on the
microphone. When I ->> Or I’m trying to think of somebody who has like a definite East Coast sound and quote
some r like what will Biggie Smalls say?
>> It’s all good baby baby. It was all a dream. I used to ->> It was all a dream, and there’s an r in there, but it’s between two consonants. So that
changes some of the rules. I can nerd out on you guys are really hard, obviously. And I
haven’t studied in quite some time. But yeah, all of this, all of this, I think affected my
writing and affected the way I thought about what presenting Blackness meant, what
performing Blackness meant and what being Blackness meant. And so I think all of that gets
touched on when you ask if somebody sounds White. It’s like, well, do I and what does that
mean? And, and I think, I think it’s, always an affront when someone says you sound White,
whether it’s a Black person or a White person who said it to me in the past.
>> And if you don’t know, now you know, nigga.
[ Music ]
>> We were talking about like, what do you think it would sound like if we actually weren’t
so aware of when we switch our voices back and forth, if we just spoke, like if you turn on
the news, and you just heard someone say, what’s up? Good evening, it’s time to watch the
news. Like, if you just heard that normal kind of family voice in the way that we talk about
family, what do you think like it would? Do you think it would sound different?
>> I think it might sound different-ly. I don’t know what it would be like, I feel like in some
ways, I wouldn’t want that. I wouldn’t, part of the way that we speak to each other is our
code, and we invented it for survival. And we need it from time to time so I wouldn’t, like, I
don’t know. I don’t want them to know all our hair secrets and all our our cooking secrets,
and all our ->> We need some secrets, right?
>> — vocal secrets. We need some of them for ourselves. But I think that’s part of the magic
that keeps us young, and vital, and alive. You know? I think, I think that having a language
our own in a time where our children are being murdered, I think is an, I think is an
effective tool. So I like, I like speaking lots of languages, but I don’t know. I feel like folks
need to be initiated into ours.
>> Have you ever been in a situation where, where you were asked to speak to sound
Blacker?
>> Oh, yeah.
>> Like the other way.
>> Yeah. I have been asked, and I have other friends who’ve been asked that. But then they
don’t, I mean it, it yypically, unravels, you know, rather quickly with me because I just talk a
lot of shit. So, oh, I can’t say that on your show. I talk a lot of crap.
>> No, you can. No, you can.
>> I can talk a lot of crap, so that usually opens the door much wider for whatever,
producer or college programmer brought me to their site, I’ll begin this conversation
immediately. What do you, what do you mean? What do you want me to do?
>> How did they say it?
>> Can you? Can you Tone It Up? Can you do you think it could just — there’s always like a ->> Do they dance like that when they say it?
>> You know, I won’t say who but it’s actually less with folks like that because by the time
someone brings me in to do poems at school, they have a pretty good sense of who I am
and, you know, but I did voiceover work for a while. And they give me notes like, we want
to, we want to market to a more urban group. We want it to feel a little grittier or a little, a
little harsher. And so I started recording three takes of it anything. So say like Nabisco
cookies are great to eat. That’d be the first take. The second take, I would always do it sort
of like what it would be like if I were performing a poem. So I’d be like, Nabisco cookies are
great to eat. A little, a little more energy, little more enthusiasm. And then they inevitably
would pick the third one where I would like, do this before, and be like Nabisco cookies are
right to eat. That would be the one that they pick. They always pick the third one, 100% of
the time.
>> That did sound like the best one to me, though.
>> Hey, it is what it is.
>> I like that one.
>> I mean, you’re in my target demo, so.
>> The Stoop. The Stoop Family includes managing producer Julie Cain and engineers Chris
Hoff and Seth Samuel. Music by Dawold Anthony and Masin Jamal, check us out at
thestoop.org and on Facebook and Twitter. Support for The Stoop comes from the NPR
story lab and from California humanities and nonprofit partner of the NEH. Find them at
calhome.org and a big thanks to pop up archive. Our radio home is KALW in San Francisco.
>> In San Francisco, I’m Lela Day.
>> And I’m Hannah Baba. I still don’t think we sound like any Nabisco nothing. So we can
forget that.
>> We will never be hired by Nabisco.
>> We will never be hired. That will not be our next gig.